Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/10/1999 10:07 AM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 175 - LICENSING OF FOSTER GROUP HOMES Number 0035 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the first order of business as House Bill No. 175, "An Act requiring the Department of Health and Social Services to provide notice to a community council on receipt of an application for a license to operate a certain kind of foster group home." Number 0238 JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant to Representative Joe Green, came forward to make corrections on some testimony heard on April 8, 1999. He stated, "Not to debate anyone in absentia, but there are a few points that were made during testimony on Thursday that I would like to either correct, complete or clear up. Mr. Jessee, who is also a constituent of Representative Green, testified that 'hard cases make bad law' and inferred that the sponsor got angry in a situation and jumped up and drafted the bill. For the record, Mr. Chairman, when the scope of this problem became apparent about a year ago, I advised the sponsor to amend a bill that he had at that time in the Judiciary Committee, HB 375, which had a title that clearly encompassed solutions to the problems we saw here, and he decided no, to wait to ... collect a paper trail and see if we could work the problem through the department. That didn't happen. So I would like the record to be clear that this is not any angry reaction to a problem; we've been working it for over a year." MR. LOGAN referred to inferences about the bill being a violation of the fair housing act. He asked the drafter about this and on the face of it, it appears it is not a violation of the fair housing act. He is continuing research on that point. There were statements about how the bill would burden foster parents and operators. The sponsor may choose to speak later about the gift of foster parenthood, but in drafting the measure, they very specifically avoided burdening foster parents in any way. The bill does not require anything of foster parents. The only performance required in the bill is by the department. It is a notice from the department to the community council, similar to the statutory required notice for a liquor license. MR. LOGAN went on to say that there were some statements that this bill would only apply to Anchorage because community councils are only organized in Anchorage. The Kenai borough has three community councils, the Matanuska-Susitna borough has 24 community councils, and Anchorage has 37 community councils. Mr. Vote testified that he felt harassed when people stopped in front of his home and wrote down license plate numbers. For the record, Mr. Logan noted, he may have been responsible for that. When the neighbors called their state representative to complain about vehicles with state license plates speeding on their street, he called the Division of Family and Youth Services (DFYS) and was told to have people write down license plate numbers, and they would take care of it. MR. LOGAN noted there was a statement made that Mr. Vote was forced to sell his home at a loss. Mr. Vote purchased his home for $450,000, and the selling price listed in the classified of the Anchorage Daily News is $489,900. The ad also states the house has nine bedrooms. There are motels in this state that do not have nine bedrooms. There was a question from someone asking what if they, as a neighbor, wanted to take in foster children. The phrase "as a neighbor" is key; if it is a neighbor, that person is already known. That is a far cry from an unknown person, a single man, coming in and filling a nine-bedroom house with emotionally disturbed teenagers. That was the cause of the problem in this case. There was some talk about big brother; the bill provides too much information. The government already has this information. They are not collecting any more information; they are simply notifying the community council that an application has been received. MR. LOGAN stated that in the sponsor's and his opinions, there was a breathtaking gap between what Mr. Webb testified and what actually happened. Yes, they got information, but it took a year. The information that Mr. Webb indicated to the committee that is readily available, was not readily available. He quoted from a letter Representative Green wrote last May which said, "A few minutes from the Deputy Commissioner or the Commissioner with a group of local citizens would clear the whole thing up." The department wrote back and said "No it wouldn't." CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Logan for copies of the series of letters. Number 0630 REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked who makes notification to whom in HB 175. MR. LOGAN answered that notification would be made by DFYS to the community councils, and the list of their addresses is readily available. REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked if that is where the process stops. MR. LOGAN replied that it is up to the community council. There was some discussion about how the bill might not fix the problem; it wasn't intended to be an overall systems approach because there might not be a problem. It might be that once citizens are informed an application has been received, they will say "No problem." It could be that the home is for some developmentally disabled toddlers or someone who would posed no threat. They could put their arms around that and say, "That is great." It could be that the home is for a group of emotionally distressed teenagers, and they might want to know more about that. Whether the process stops there depends on the community council or the neighbors. Number 0776 REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER said that was his concern. The bill says there will be notification; it doesn't say anything about a continuing process. Yet that continuing process has been inferred by what Mr. Logan has said. Representative Whitaker believes that, by intent, there is a continuing process, and it needs to be identified. He sees this bill putting something out that provides a number of questions that are unanswered. He asked Mr. Logan what would be the next step if the community council says "No, we don't want this." Number 0819 MR. LOGAN said the next step would be whatever steps they have available to them now. There is no empowerment in this legislation to stop a home. The worst-case scenario is at least people will know what is going on in their neighborhood. He compared the bill to a bear bell. "As you are hiking through the woods in territory that might have bears, you have two ways to let the bear know you're coming. You can wear a bell to let the bear know you're coming so the bear can adjust its spatial requirements, become acclimated to the fact that you are there, and everybody's OK. Or you can surprise the bear, in which case, the bear becomes irritated and might react in a way that people might react if all of a sudden, right next to them, is an institution with a bunch of people that they know nothing about." This bill simply notifies people so they can make their internal adjustments. REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER asked Mr. Logan to describe the neighborhood in question. MR. LOGAN answered that it is mid- to upper-price level homes; not affluent but upscale. There is an undeveloped park with a small playground on one side and a sea bluff on the backside. Number 0941 REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER commented that there may be a stigma attached to foster group homes. They are not considered upscale nor affluent. He is concerned that those in the neighborhood may think that foster group homes are just fine--in somebody else's neighborhood, perhaps a less upscale neighborhood, "Not in my backyard (NIMBY)." He asked Mr. Logan to comment on that. MR. LOGAN deferred that question to the sponsor, Representative Green. Number 1035 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON indicated that his cursory analysis of this situation is everything that could go wrong, did; almost every reaction that could have been better, wasn't; and he wants to do everything possible to de-escalate the intensity of the discussion and focus on what went wrong, if anything. He wants to know if there is a generic problem that needs to be addressed, what they learned from it, and what can they do better in the future. Even though he is listed as a sponsor, he believes that HB 175 is not the best solution. REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER concurred with Co-Chairman Dyson's analysis and intent; he is not trying to put Representative Green or anyone on the spot. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN appreciated Representative Whitaker's comments. He guaranteed that in this particular neighborhood, NIMBY is not an issue. If that were a safe home for children or younger children, it wouldn't matter. That neighborhood has children of its own and loves children; they would welcome such an institution. They are concerned about the safety of their own children. It would be acceptable to have notification only when the children are above certain ages. The spokesperson for the community said she would have no problem with that and would welcome such a situation. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON told the people at the Kenai Legislative Information Office the committee is under a time constraint, and if they don't get to their testimony, he would like them to leave their phone numbers so they can get back to them if this goes to a subcommittee. The committee does want their input. Number 1254 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Webb to summarize from his perception what went wrong in this particular situation, what if any problems or mistakes the department made, what they learned from it, and what would be different in the future. Number 1280 RUSS WEBB, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Health, Education and Social Services (DHSS), came forward to testify. He stated that there was a good bit of information the community council and the neighborhood wanted from the department; they tried to make a good faith effort by meeting with the community council and neighborhood on at least three occasions to provide them with information. One thing the DHSS encountered was the desire from the neighborhood for information that they cannot provide. If they failed, what they failed to do is help people really understand the legal framework within which they work, and the impeding interests that drive that legal framework. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Webb what the time lag was between the time the people called for the information and the first meeting. Number 1341 MR. WEBB responded that his first indication was when Representative Green contacted him last May at the end of session. After that teleconference, they established within a week a meeting with the DFYS licensing staff, regional manager, and several other DFYS staff, in the neighborhood to discuss the issues. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked when was the first time the neighbors started trying to get the information and didn't. He also asked Mr. Webb to document the other two meetings he had in the neighborhood. MR. WEBB said he didn't have the date of the second meeting off the top of his head, but he believed the licensing staff and regional manager had a second meeting in the neighborhood a month or two after the initial meeting. He met with the community council November 11, 1998. Within the time available at that meeting, there was not enough time to answer all the neighbors' questions. It was suggested the neighbors submit their written questions to the DHSS, and the DHSS received two separate submissions over a month's time. They answered the 64 questions in January 1999 attempting to provide detailed answers and information. Number 1453 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Webb if he knows how the initial phone calls from the neighborhood got handled. MR. WEBB answered he essentially knows nothing about questions the neighborhood may have raised. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked what the policy is for the staffers who would have responded for those calls. MR. WEBB told him when someone calls, the staff try to give out the public information. He understands that much of the information people asked for was information on the children's conditions, diagnoses, treatment histories and other things that are not public information. The department does not give out information that they are legally bound not to. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN recommended that someone from DFYS attend the subcommittee meeting. Obviously, there is disparity in what people on both sides of this issue agree as facts. He pointed out there should never had been a need for him to be involved in the first place. There is a seven-month hiatus between the end of session and November. It seems like it is pulling teeth to try to get information from the DHSS. He believes that breeds an attitude which creates animosity, and therein lies the problem. Lack of information and an adversarial appearance, even if it is not true but appears that way, is a problem. The DHSS needs to mend some fences. They have been able to make inroads in release of information where it is absolutely necessary. He contends that when a foster group home is being established in a neighborhood, a certain amount of public information could be released. He wants government to cooperate with its people. That is all he is after, and that is all the people in his neighborhood are after. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Webb if there were activities in the house that required the police to come. MR. WEBB replied that he believed Mr. Vote answered that question the other day in the affirmative; the police had been called and Mr. Vote called Mr. Webb. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if the police record was available from that incident or was it confidential. MR. WEBB explained that with passage of HB 6 several years ago, there is information available about an offense committed by a youth which includes the youth's name and the type of offense. He asked Mr. Buttcane to answer the question. ROBERT BUTTCANE, Juvenile Probation Officer, Youth Corrections, Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health and Social Services, responded that HB 6, known as the juvenile disclosure law, requires that the records related to juvenile offenses involving weapons be made public. He believes that the case described would be subject to the juvenile disclosure law, but he doesn't know if that incident occurred prior to the enactment of HB 6. If that type of incident happened today, there would be a public record available to anyone who asked for it. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked how would someone go about getting that information. Number 1773 MR. BUTTCANE answered they would contact the local juvenile probation office. Those records are available en masse to anyone who comes in the front doors so they can look at a flip board and see any or all of the juvenile disclosure records. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if there is a geographical sort on the list if people don't know the name. MR. BUTTCANE answered that they are not structured in such a way to do exhaustive searches with bits of information, but if they can't find the information, they would invite the person to look at the file to see if he/she can find the one they want. The probation office tries to be as cooperative and helpful as possible. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if that information would ever be on-line. MR. BUTTCANE said they are not in the process now of putting information on line, but there is nothing that money can't solve. MR. WEBB told them they are attempting to develop a juvenile offender management information system, but they are a long way from getting there. Once they get there, this may very well be information that is available to the public on-line. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if HB 6 only involved crimes with a weapon. MR. BUTTCANE answered no, there are a number of offenses: felony assaults against persons (which include sexual assaults), burglary in the first degree, and violations of court orders could result in disclosure of original offense referrals. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Webb if he foresaw the day when he will have a data base where anyone can know if there has been a serious offense. MR. WEBB responded certainly at some point in the future. As Mr. Buttcane said, the information is available now; it is the sorting that is a bit difficult. However, the numbers are relatively small in many communities, so information is more readily available. There is a process that needs to be undertaken before that information can be put out, but down the line, it should be more readily available to the public. Number 1956 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN reiterated his concern of an attitude about releasing information to help the community understand. He pointed out that HB 6 went into effect in 1997, but they didn't know about this situation until 1998, and they found out about it through a newspaper article. "Can you imagine somebody with two little girls that play across the street or in this park area, and they're having their morning coffee, and they read that there is a knife wielder in a group foster home two doors away." There is a huge tidal wave of animosity that should never have happened. If the neighbors had known that this might happen, or there could be arrangements made, as there were subsequently. DFYS did agree they would not put that kind of person in this particular home again. He believes the department would have never heard from them if all of that had been handled up-front. Number 2028 MR. WEBB understands the issues that have been raised. They didn't have, and currently don't have, a mechanism for identifying all the people who would be interested in knowing whether a particular foster home exists in their community. He believes a limit in this bill would be on the type, the size. It would be difficult for the DHSS to promise, in every instance, that no child with a particular history or background would ever be placed in a community-based setting. If that were the case, all children who ever committed offenses would be in institutional settings until they turned 18. They have tried to be sensitive to the issues raised. There are only 44 delinquent children in foster homes today statewide, and the children with histories of sexual offenses are in specific, highly trained and specialized placements; however, those placements are in communities. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked for the criteria of whether a child goes in a foster home or a foster group home. MR. WEBB indicated it is the needs of the child, the ability of the foster parent to meet those needs, to provide supervision, care, follow through with treatment needs, and support the plan for the child. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if it was fair to say these are the children who need more intensive support and services and have greater needs than children put with nuclear families. MR. WEBB said yes. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON asked why foster homes didn't have to deal with municipal zoning and planning restrictions. MR. WEBB believes that each municipality can set its own zoning regulations, and presumably they can establish zoning regulations that would impact foster homes. Perhaps Shannon O'Fallon from the Department of Law can answer that. He doesn't know of a state law that says that foster homes are not subject to municipal zoning ordinances. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON clarified that this legislation is talking only about group foster homes, not foster homes. SHANNON O'FALLON, Assistant Attorney General, Human Services Section, Civil Division (Juneau), Department of Law, answered that she was not aware of any state law or regulation that says that a foster home or a foster group home wouldn't have to comply with any local zoning ordinances, but she would do some research. MR. WEBB noted that the community council did research on specific zoning ordinances in Anchorage in this case, and he believes they have some plans to address ordinances for the specific concerns. He knows that the larger facilities do have some zoning restrictions in some communities. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON agreed he was surprised on Thursday when somebody said the state doesn't have to abide by municipal codes. He asked Representative Green or Mr. Logan why they didn't deal with this on a municipal level. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN answered that was the first way they went through assembly members Mr. Bell and Ms. Abney. Mr. Bell checked with an Anchorage attorney and was told that the state's needs superseded local zoning ordinances. They took that as a fact and didn't pursue it any further; obviously, they will now. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE told them the larger institutions for residential care providers are held to planning and zoning requirements in Fairbanks. He agreed they should pursue that. CO-CHAIRMAN COGHILL recommended that the subcommittee will need to take up the definition of a foster group home because it is not in statute now. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted they got a description from DFYS and presumed it was part of their regulations. TAPE 99-33, SIDE B REPRESENTATIVE GREEN added it is not the intent of the legislation nor the neighborhood to exclude foster homes or even foster group homes. They just want to know beforehand. REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER pointed out that the only concern he has to this bill is that they not create an impediment to the furtherance of the foster care program. It is there because there is great need. They need to recognize the neighborhood's need to know what is happening in their neighborhood as well as the need of the foster care program. He hopes this can be done through the subcommittee. He didn't want his concerns to be misconstrued as opposition to the bill. He believes there is a way to bring both needs together. REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked if someone from the DHSS could answer whether there is a regulatory definition of foster group homes. MR. WEBB reported there is a definition of foster group homes in regulations. A foster group home is defined in 7AAC 50.990 as a home having not more than eight children. Number 2275 CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON commented that the focus of the debate is group homes where there is a demonstrated risk from violence and sexual offenses. That is all the neighbors are concerned about, and there is some legitimacy to that. He asked Mr. Webb if they could post the addresses and locations of group homes on their web page. MR. WEBB answered they certainly could with enough time and resources. Given that there are very few foster group homes, it should not be a huge burden. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON said they will need to talk about the mechanics about the information that can be disclosed and the limitations. He announced the committee would hold HB 175, and he assigned it to a subcommittee made up of Representatives Green, Brice and Dyson. He requested that the subcommittee meet in the next seven to ten days. Co-Chairman Dyson will be the chair of the subcommittee. [HB 175 was held over.] The committee took an at-ease from 11:04 - 11:08 a.m. CO-CHAIRMAN DYSON handed the gavel to Co-Chairman Coghill.
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